Like to catch up with you face to face.

Sorry for the late reply.Didn’t see your comments until a friend hightlight it to me.

Connect with me at jeffteo555@yahoo.com.sg

Discipleship is what Jesus commanded us to do in Matthew 28 and in 2 Tim 2:2 what Pual told Timothy.

It’s definitely for new covenant believers!

In fact from John 13 to 17 Jesus was refering mostly to the dispensation of grace and about the Holy Spirit.

You don’t sound like anybody I know from CEFC.

Your theology, your insights into dicipleship and church structures and alignment is of “a certain kind”.(No pun intended):)

You are a man who probably have read alot and process through a number of current day church issues and subjects. Probably you had grappled and seek the Lord before,in some of these issues and subjects.

How does one become a member of a church if his or her understanding of grace, church structure and alignment is so different from the church that he/she is attending?

I find your walk admirable because with your broad understanding on such subjects, you seemed to be part of the church but not apart from the church. How do you do that? I say this without sarcasm.

Its great to know that you understand so much about grace, properity and healing.

Is this mostly through your own readings and studies or from CEFC?

Jesus is perfect theology? I think that was through the words of Bill Johnson?

1.Seems as though there are quite a few presuppositions on Discipleship and in vary degrees as well.Back to basics..
Q1 – What is a disciple?
Q2 – Are you a disciple?
Q3 – Are you commanded to be a disciple?
Q4 – Are you intentionally training to be a “better” disciple.
Q5 – Is discipleship a process of event?

2. Is discipleship passive or active

3. How is discipleship conducted, informal, formal settings, Books, Pulpit, Mentoring, CGs etc etc Choosing one over the other or holistically under different settings, various stages in life?

4. Do you become a disciple or train to be one? (Think Spiritual Formation)

5. Are structures necessary? (think about schools or even home schooling if you inclined towards flexibility)

6. Can we make disciples if we are not disciples first (Read Matt 28:19)

7. However, I have problem with the statement “There is a Chinese proverb – ‘feed an army for a thousand days only to use them on one.’ – The closest example I can find is that of a martyr and that is assuming he/she did nothing worthwhile prior to martyrdom. As long as the WORD is heard, received and applied in obedience, a christian will experience growth. This is but a very important subset of discipleship.
Hope this is not an excuse to go down the path of least resistance as some will agree that some of the GOD’s call can be quite uncomfortable to move us away from our comfort zone… Sorry, if I offend anyone or the writer with this comment.

8. To conclude, listening, learning and “sitting under the feet of Jesus” etc are of paramount importance which should rightly lead to transformation and value change but is it the END itself….Is discipleship that passive?

An athlete can train all day, but the race is where the rubber meets the road and they’ll know how good they really are.
Moral – You train for excellence, as an act of worship. i.e. You try your best and GOD will do the rest.

Finally, the process of discipleship should lead one to know GOD better and HIS heart for the world (i.e Not just head knowledge).

This is what I heard during a recent conference:”What this generation neglects, the next generation rejects”

GOD Bless!

Perhaps, I’ll focus a bit more on this program. In short, it is about following practices like reading verses and having a mentor lead and guide you. Bear in mind the mentor does not control you. Even though he’s the authority, he’s ultimately a guiding force. Anyway, when the program was being promoted, I knew this was not for me. I did not even dare to take the next step. You see, discipleship is not about dos and don’ts. It’s not about following a set of methods and thus believing ah, you’ve arrived as a disciple.

Thus, the methods are there, but the heart and the passion isn’t. Ppl think that all they need to do is exercise willpower and make adjustments to their character and it’s done. All these justify man’s efforts and takes away glory from God. Go to their services and you’ll find the preaching stale. They preach and hope or expect you to listen without drawing you in. The worship lacks passion. To them, you shouldn’t get too emotional about God. After all, you must have the correct theory first and not being foolishly passionate in worship.

But having said that, I guess in the end, it works for some ppl. So my criticism is just based on how it affects certain individuals like me. If this methodical approach works for you, then good for you.

Leviticus 2:11
11‘No grain offering which you bring to the Lord shall be made with leaven, for you shall burn no leaven nor any honey in any offering to the Lord made by fire.

When I was a young Christian, I heard of an illustration for Psalm 23 about shepherds who sometimes break the legs of sheep which habitually stray, so as to teach them not to stray. That erroneous teaching — “The Lord is my Shepherd, He breaketh my legs” — stuck with me for years, causing me needless fear of God’s punishment when I felt that I had strayed from Him.

Such erroneous teachings are what God’s Word refers to as “leaven”. That is why Jesus cautioned His disciples, “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.” (Matthew 16:6) The leaven of the Pharisees was their doctrine of legalism, which judges and condemns people who fail to keep God’s laws. The leaven of the Sadducees was their doctrine of humanism, which discounts the supernatural and teaches that everything can be explained away using reasoning or science.

When God told His people in Leviticus 2:11, “No grain offering which you bring to the Lord shall be made with leaven,” we are reminded that how we appreciate Jesus, our grain offering, must not be mixed with wrong teachings. For example, when we talk about “suffering with Christ” (Romans 8:17), we must know that it is not about suffering sicknesses or lack, things which Jesus has redeemed us from, but suffering persecution, scorn and rejection for His name’s sake, which we are likely to face as good Christians.

My friend, what you believe about Jesus is important because the Holy Spirit bears witness only to the truth. (John 16:13) So ask Him to unveil the beauty of Christ and the perfection of His finished work to you when you read God’s Word. Find out from the Word how Christ has redeemed you from every curse and paid for you to enjoy all of God’s blessings with His sacrifice at the cross.

Beloved, get rid of any leaven in your believing. Believe and declare that you are healed, not sick; prosperous, not poor; and forever righteous in Christ. And when you start believing and confessing God’s truths, the anointing of the Holy Spirit will be released for the breakthrough you need!

This is going to be a fairly lengthy reply, so please bear with me.

The word “bones” in Hebrew is transliterated as “etzem”. I did some research on it and found that besides bones, there are also other meanings attached to it:
The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon says that it also means essence, substance, self.

I did a search on Jewish Community Online and found this article (excerpt attached below):
From The Jewish Chronicle
Rabbi Julian Sinclair
November 5, 2008
Etzem means what is inner and essential. In modern Hebrew, politicians will frequently say “etzem ha’inyan”, which means roughly, “the essential fact of the matter”, and is equally vacuous and clichéd. The word itself means bone, and we see the similarity to the now archaic English phrase, “the marrow of the matter”.

In the context of Psalm 51, David was expressing remorse over his sin of adultery and murder in the Bathsheba episode.

IN 2 Sam 12:13, David said,”I have sinned against the LORD.” and he confessed that Psalm 51:4 -
4 Against You, You only, have I sinned,
And done this evil in Your sight—
That You may be found just when You speak,
And blameless when You judge.

In 2 Sam 12:10-12, God pronounced his punishment on David through the prophet Nathan:

10 Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’ 11 Thus says the LORD: ‘Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun.’”

BUT was David worried about those punishments that God meted out?

No. David was only concerned about his fellowship with God:

Psalm 51:11-12 (NKJV)
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence,
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
And uphold me by Your generous Spirit.

David is only concerned with whether his own spirit is in communion with the Holy Spirit. I submit that David used the word “bones” here to refer to himself, his innermost core, his essence, his spirit.

We see David use the word “bones” a number of times in the book of Psalms and they reflect a similar pattern of David crying out to God with his “bones” i.e. his spirit, heart and soul.

——-
Psalm 6:1-3 (NKJV)
1 O LORD, do not rebuke me in Your anger,
Nor chasten me in Your hot displeasure.
2 Have mercy on me, O LORD, for I am weak;
O LORD, heal me, for my bones are troubled.
3 My soul also is greatly troubled;
But You, O LORD—how long?

Psalm 31:9-10 (NKJV)
9 Have mercy on me, O LORD, for I am in trouble;
My eye wastes away with grief,
Yes, my soul and my body!
10 For my life is spent with grief,
And my years with sighing;
My strength fails because of my iniquity,
And my bones waste away.

Psalm 35:9-10 (NKJV)
9 And my soul shall be joyful in the LORD;
It shall rejoice in His salvation.
10 All my bones shall say,
“LORD, who is like You,
Delivering the poor from him who is too strong for him,
Yes, the poor and the needy from him who plunders him?”

Psalm 38:1-5 (NKJV)
1 O LORD, do not rebuke me in Your wrath,
Nor chasten me in Your hot displeasure!
2 For Your arrows pierce me deeply,
And Your hand presses me down.

3 There is no soundness in my flesh
Because of Your anger,
Nor any health in my bones
Because of my sin.
4 For my iniquities have gone over my head;
Like a heavy burden they are too heavy for me.
5 My wounds are foul and festering
Because of my foolishness.

Psalm 102:1-3 (NKJV)
1 Hear my prayer, O LORD,
And let my cry come to You.
2 Do not hide Your face from me in the day of my trouble;
Incline Your ear to me;
In the day that I call, answer me speedily.

3 For my days are consumed like smoke,
And my bones are burned like a hearth.
——–

God’s chastening of David was painful to David not because of the punishments set out in 2 Sam 12:10-12 but rather it is because of the fear that he will be separated from God.

God did not chasten David with punishment or “bad things” or as you alluded: by “breaking the bones of a sheep”.

God chastened David by talking to him, by telling him a story through Prophet Nathan to show the error of his ways.
——-
2 Sam 12:1-9 (NKJV)
1 Then the LORD sent Nathan to David. And he came to him, and said to him: “There were two men in one city, one rich and the other poor. 2 The rich man had exceedingly many flocks and herds. 3 But the poor man had nothing, except one little ewe lamb which he had bought and nourished; and it grew up together with him and with his children. It ate of his own food and drank from his own cup and lay in his bosom; and it was like a daughter to him. 4 And a traveler came to the rich man, who refused to take from his own flock and from his own herd to prepare one for the wayfaring man who had come to him; but he took the poor man’s lamb and prepared it for the man who had come to him.”
5 So David’s anger was greatly aroused against the man, and he said to Nathan, “As the LORD lives, the man who has done this shall surely die! 6 And he shall restore fourfold for the lamb, because he did this thing and because he had no pity.”
7 Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the LORD God of Israel: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your keeping, and gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if that had been too little, I also would have given you much more! 9 Why have you despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in His sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the people of Ammon.
——-

God chastened David with His Word! His Word pierced straight through David’s heart, David’s essence, David’s innermost core.

God’s Word broke his “bones”.

I do NOT believe that God puts bad things on us to teach us a lesson, or to tell us we have displeased Him in some way.

We read from the Psalm that David wrote after the prophet Nathan exposed his sin with Bathsheba: “Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me hear joy and gladness, That the bones You have broken may rejoice.” (Psa 51:7-8)

Remembering that David was a shepherd boy himself, he was alluding in this passage to his Shepherd, God and how He has broken his bones.

Having said that, we must not confuse God breaking our bones to frighten us into submission and obedience, with the shepherd’s intentions to keep us close to Him.

If one of my children is lost, would I leave everything behind to look for him? Of course I would! But would I admonish and chasten the child so that he will not PERSISTENTLY run astray? Of course I would too!

If I may (long-windedly) quote from Hebrews 12:5-11: “5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: “My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; 6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.” 7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.”

God’s chastening brings us greater love and respect for Him because it shows He cares for us so much that He is even willing to break His heart and “break our bones” (metaphorically).

Enduring such ‘painful’ chastening also ‘yields the fruit of righteousness’ to those who have been ‘trained by it’.

I agree with you that life has a mixture of trials and blessings. Jesus said it in His own words: “These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world. – John 16:33″

I have in the past, misunderstood NCC’s teachings as well, that life is meant to be blessing after blessing. But over time, I realized that the pastors are trying to tell us “Troubles will come, but let us have the attitude of Caleb and Joshua, that these troubles are food for us.” And also to rest in the truth that Christ has overcome the world.

I encourage you to go back to God’s word regarding the doctrine of the Shepherd breaking the lamb’s leg.

Please verify it from the Bible that such things do happen. I am concerned mainly because such teachings can lead to leaders using unbiblical methods to correct the “wayward” people.

This is a blog post that I found to show that this particular doctrine/ story is not of the Bible

Enjoy and have a great weekend!

:

There is a story going around the Christian community. It gives me the shivers. I even heard it repeated on the local Christian radio station. It is a story about a shepherd that broke the legs of his lamb in order to keep the sheep from straying away.

I found this version on the Internet:

“I guess you’ve heard the story of the shepherd that broke his sheep’s leg one time. Many little stories has been told about it. And was asked this shepherd, “Did the sheep fall off of a mountain and do this?”He said, “No.”Said, “What happened?”He said, “I broke its leg.”Said, “Why did you break its leg? Are you a cruel shepherd?”He said, “No, I love the sheep. But the sheep got to running away from me. And he kept straying out to itself. And I know the nature of sheep. And I know if they stray too far away, the wolf will get them. So I had to break the sheep’s leg to keep it with me, to draw it to my bosom, to give it a little special food. And I’ll be so kind to it, that when its leg gets well, it’ll never leave me any more.”

This does NOT come from the Bible. As far as I can tell, it comes from a sermon delivered by Brother William Marrion Branham called ‘The Good Shepherd Of The Sheep’, delivered on March 8, 1957.

Why does this awful story perpetuate? It is not biblically based. I can’t find anything in scripture that would even hint that this is in God’s nature.

Here ARE some scriptures from the Bible:

…and the sheep hear his voice, and he calleth his sheep by name, and leadeth them out. John 10:3

So God leads us out, he doesn’t break our leg.

Here is admonition from the Lord to the leaders of Israel:

The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them (Ezekiel 34:4)

It shows God’s nature. He doesn’t want people to be ruled with force or cruelty.

And probably the best example of God’s nature straight from Jesus himself:

And he spake this parable unto them, saying, What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance (Luke 15:3-7).

Uh… no where in this story does it say that God broke the legs of the sheep that strayed.

God doesn’t put bad things on us to teach us as lesson. Bad things happen because we live in a fallen world.

Much of the teaching we hear today is a mixture of the bible and human reasoning.

Therefore you find some of the teachings and policies don’t line up with the Scripture or it’s a confusion or mixture of law and grace.