“If Christ did not die for all and if it is possible to have a sorrow for sin that is not true repentance, a faith that is not true faith, a possessing of the Spirit that falls short of true regeneration, if despite any and every experience of the gospel ‘there is a way to hell even from the gate of heaven,’ if Paul himself feared loss of salvation, then what remains of the Calvinist’s assurance? It has died the death of a thousand qualifications.”

Paul certainly said that but how does one do that while supposedly holding to eternal security? It seems to me if you believe that salvation can never be lost, a one-time check to see if one is saved would be sufficient (assuming you pass the test) but Reformed preachers would deny that.

These calls for regular self-examination to see if you are saved WOULD make sense if salvation could be forfeited but of course, Reformed believers like Washer and Piper deny that can happen.

Has anybody else noticed it? Whether you believe in eternal or conditional security, you are basically in the same boast when it comes to assurance. If fall away from bearing the fruit and living for the Lord, you won’t go to heaven. The one camp says you lost your salvation, the other says you were never saved in the first place. But you both arrive at the same position in the end.

I don’t quite see how anyone can know that they are going to be saved in the end. If you are an eternal security proponent, you have to allow the possibility that you were never saved in the first place (no matter what evidence of salvation you might be bearing right now) and that the reality of it is going to manifest itself one day. If you are conditionalist, you have to fear that you just might not gut it out to the end; you could lose your salvation.

Sorry if this was little off topic but I had get this out there.

I am not saying that the christian life is gonna be perfect, but we have to know that there is battle in the christian life and we have to fight this battle. The gospel doesnt promise good health or good wealth or prosperity , it promises suffering! Just read romans. Romans 8 :17-18 “and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.”

John 8: 32″So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

I must say i disagree with your views on Paul Washer; more specifically, your views on the Reformed/Calvinistic tradition because the principles they preach from the pulpit are not of themselves, but of the word of God.

James 2:26 clearly states that faith without works is dead. 1 John 2:3 says that we know we have come to know him if we keep his commandments.

2 Cor 13:5
5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you–unless indeed you fail the test?

The apostle Paul himself said we must continually examine ourselves, examine our faith. The Reformed tradition holds firmly to the word of God, and it says that works are characteristic of any regenerate Christian, because of the Holy Spirit in him.

In my own Christian walk I have questioned and doubted my own salvation many times; this desperation has not pushed me to being legalistic or to focus on the law, but rather to understand the extent of my own depravity and the greatness of the work Jesus Christ did on the cross; the fate he saved me from.

Law and grace cannot be separate doctrines; it is only because we were unable to be justified by the work of Law that the work of Grace is valid. Knowledge of both and study of both have to come hand in hand. Both are of God’s righteousness and should be treated as such.

To Jack I would say, examine yourself and see if Christ has borne any fruits of the Holy Spirit in you. If he has not, you should fear. Just know that struggling with sin does not mean you are disqualified from the prize.

Romans 7 says very clearly that the struggle that is present is what characterizes every Christian’s walk in Christ- the law of sin and grace and at work in us all the time, but it is the Christian who does what he does not want. The unbeliever does what he wants. Be thankful that you have this turmoil, because James 1 says that the testing of your faith brings perseverance. :)

I pray that God might reveal his nature to you, that we might grow in the knowledge of God, building each other up in the church.

Yes, Pastor Prince said that yesterday, which was not only funny but actually contained a very important biblical truth regarding how we ought to counsel those who sin (including ourselves!). The answer isn’t to question the person’s salvation, but reaffirm their identity in Christ and exhort them to live up to that. “Become what you already are”, as some would put it. I think that’s exactly how Paul does it in his Epistles (e.g. in 1 Cor. 6:15) and I hope to touch more on this in future posts!

Thats one way to do it…. another way would be to say : “You are a King and Priest, a Son of God… why are you acting like a monkey?”

Instead of telling people they are not there and asking them to “buck up”, why not tell them “Hey, now that you are there, why not let others see how good it is through your actions? Be a testimony !”

Steve Mcvey in his books, Grace walk & Grace walk experience puts it like this:

“Next to the knowledge of God, a knowledge of who we are (in Christ) is by far the most important truth we can possess

God doesn’t determine identity by behaviour but by birth.

God intends for us to experience victory in our Christian Walk by trusting, not by trying. We may have tried to improve ourselves to become victorious, but God never asked us to do that. He only asks that we trust Him and let Him transform us. But if we keep taking the same wrong approach we’ve always taken, we’ll get the same defeating results.

That’s what legalism still causes people to believe today. A person who is trapped in legalism examines himself, determines he is not good enough like he is, and goes out and tries to do something by his own efforts to make himself presentable to God.

What we need is not a change in behaviour. What we need is a change in our attitude about our life source. ( A renewal of mind ) We need to experience living out of the life of Jesus Christ“. (brackets mine)

I find that there’s so many approaches out there, none that seems totally wrong? We need to go back to the Word of God and what it says.

Paul in Col 2 tells us to

(Verse 7) “have (our) the roots [of your being] firmly and deeply planted [in Him, fixed and founded in Him], being continually built up in Him, becoming increasingly more confirmed and established in the faith, just as you were taught, and abounding and overflowing in it with thanksgiving.

(verse 8) “see to it that NO ONE makes you captive by his so-called philosophy and intellectualism and vain deceit, following human tradition (men’s ideas of the material rather than the spiritual world), just crude notions following the rudimentary and elemental teachings of the universe and disregarding [the teachings of] Christ (the Messiah).

Roms 12:2 “Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world (or even the patterns of certain groups of believers), but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.” that “you are IN HIM, made full and having come to fullness of life [in Christ you too are filled with the God-head - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - and reach full spiritual stature] Col 2:10, AMP (brackets mine)

Only then, will our walk reflects our beliefs. :)

shalom!

interestingly, what was brought up and communicated between you and Jack seems to be close to wat that had been going thru my mind for the past couple of weeks.

short of regurgitating all that you have posted, suffice to say i agree with you on washer as well as new cre.

in addition to washer, lately i’ve been reading packer’s Knowing God and picking up sermons on sermon index, most of which i really liked. however, the materials seem to lean more towards the fearing and trembling in the face of the sovereign God.

That said, most angles could actually converge at the knowledge of Christ…..which possibly is the point of it all….

looking forward to read more about how you think prince is a breath of fresh air too.