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	<title>Comments on: Thoughts on New Creation Church &#8211; Balancing the Indicative and the Imperative &#8211; Part 2</title>
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	<link>http://www.stillhaventfound.org/2010/03/02/thoughts-on-new-creation-church-balancing-the-indicative-and-the-imperative-part-2/</link>
	<description>declaring and bringing heaven here on earth</description>
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		<title>By: stillhaventfound</title>
		<link>http://www.stillhaventfound.org/2010/03/02/thoughts-on-new-creation-church-balancing-the-indicative-and-the-imperative-part-2/#comment-112680</link>
		<dc:creator>stillhaventfound</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 01:39:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stillhaventfound.org/?p=424#comment-112680</guid>
		<description>Hi Andrew, I think this gets into the mystery of God&#039;s sovereignty and human&#039;s responsibility. When the Bible exhorts / commands someone to do something, it doesn&#039;t mean that we do it apart from God&#039;s help and enabling and grace. And if we acknowledge that it&#039;s God that enables us, it doesn&#039;t mean we wait passively for Him to change our desires before doing anything.

As John Piper said &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/sermons/bydate/1988/620_Practical_Help_for_Praying_for_Help/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;This might seem so obvious that it wouldn&#039;t need mentioning. But it does because there are some who say that since Christ is supposed to live his life through you (&quot;I am crucified with Christ. It is no longer I but Christ who lives in me.&quot;), you should not do anything—that is, simply wait until you are, as it were, carried along by another will.

Well this is simply not what the Bible teaches. The Spirit of God does not cancel out our will. The work of God does not cancel out our work. The Spirit transforms our will. And God works in us so that we can work. So Philippians 2:12-13 says, &quot;Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for God is at work in you both to will and to work for his good pleasure.&quot;

When you have admitted to God that you can do nothing without him, and prayed for his help, and trusted his promise, then go ahead, ACT! And in that act Christ will be trusted, you will be helped, others will be served, and God will get glory.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

While generally agreeing with what Piper says above, I do think there are times when heavy addictions, bondages or sin patterns are not so easily overcome by merely exhorting a person to work out in obedience. Sometimes, our response to exhortations may result in us trying to use our will and human efforts to change - i.e. behaviour modification - and this will fail and not result in true lasting change. As David Powlison, a gospel-centered biblical counselor, &lt;a href=&quot;http://firstimportance.org/2007/10/24/christless-grace-less-attempts-at-change/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;writes&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;No one can truly change who does not know and rely on gifts from the hand of the Lord. Since Christ is both Giver and Gift, attempts to change without grace are barren of the very purpose, power, and Person that change is about. Self-manufactured change does not dislodge almighty me from the center of my tiny self-manufactured universe. Still in the futility of my mind and the hardness of my heart, I only act a bit different.

Successful living without grace describes mere self-reformation: get your act together, save your marriage, get off your duff and get a job. Failure in living describes failed self-efforts: when you can’t get a grip, you despair. Christless, grace-less attempts at change conclude either with the praise of your own glory or with your shame.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I think there&#039;s a fine line between someone using one&#039;s will and human effort and someone working out in obedience according to Philippians 2:13. And I wouldn&#039;t claim to know where that fine line is!

On one hand, I&#039;m uncomfortable when people from New Creation or other churches accuse preachers who exhort the congregation to obey God (using the imperatives of Scripture and hopefully grounding it in the indicatives) of preaching change by self-efforts. I don&#039;t think this accusation stands because that seems to be Paul&#039;s model. On the other hand, I do recognize that many Christians have tried to overcome this or that sin through actively overcoming but have failed. And it&#039;s only when they meditate and behold the beauty of Jesus Christ and His love for them do they finally find freedom. That is, it&#039;s not through &quot;working out&quot; or &quot;trying harder&quot; in an active sense but through beholding and receiving in a more passive manner till their addiction finally breaks and they find freedom. That&#039;s something beautiful I find in the testimonies of many Christians in New Creation. I&#039;m especially encouraged by Pastor Joseph Prince sharing testimonies of how Christians, while confessing they are the righteousness of God in Christ even in the midst of their sin, eventually find true freedom and liberty from their addictions and sin - where before their striving to overcome addictions resulted only in failure.

So it seems that sometimes the &quot;letting God transform me and give me grace&quot; part happens simultaneously as the &quot;actively working out in obedience&quot; part. But for greater addictions, there seems to be a more chronological relationship - the former part occurs first, then the latter. 

Just some observations and stuff I&#039;ve been thinking about since attending New Creation. Would love to write a post on this one day and see what others have to say.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Andrew, I think this gets into the mystery of God&#8217;s sovereignty and human&#8217;s responsibility. When the Bible exhorts / commands someone to do something, it doesn&#8217;t mean that we do it apart from God&#8217;s help and enabling and grace. And if we acknowledge that it&#8217;s God that enables us, it doesn&#8217;t mean we wait passively for Him to change our desires before doing anything.</p>
<p>As John Piper said <a href="http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/sermons/bydate/1988/620_Practical_Help_for_Praying_for_Help/" rel="nofollow">here</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>This might seem so obvious that it wouldn&#8217;t need mentioning. But it does because there are some who say that since Christ is supposed to live his life through you (&#8220;I am crucified with Christ. It is no longer I but Christ who lives in me.&#8221;), you should not do anything—that is, simply wait until you are, as it were, carried along by another will.</p>
<p>Well this is simply not what the Bible teaches. The Spirit of God does not cancel out our will. The work of God does not cancel out our work. The Spirit transforms our will. And God works in us so that we can work. So Philippians 2:12-13 says, &#8220;Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for God is at work in you both to will and to work for his good pleasure.&#8221;</p>
<p>When you have admitted to God that you can do nothing without him, and prayed for his help, and trusted his promise, then go ahead, ACT! And in that act Christ will be trusted, you will be helped, others will be served, and God will get glory.</p></blockquote>
<p>While generally agreeing with what Piper says above, I do think there are times when heavy addictions, bondages or sin patterns are not so easily overcome by merely exhorting a person to work out in obedience. Sometimes, our response to exhortations may result in us trying to use our will and human efforts to change &#8211; i.e. behaviour modification &#8211; and this will fail and not result in true lasting change. As David Powlison, a gospel-centered biblical counselor, <a href="http://firstimportance.org/2007/10/24/christless-grace-less-attempts-at-change/" rel="nofollow">writes</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>No one can truly change who does not know and rely on gifts from the hand of the Lord. Since Christ is both Giver and Gift, attempts to change without grace are barren of the very purpose, power, and Person that change is about. Self-manufactured change does not dislodge almighty me from the center of my tiny self-manufactured universe. Still in the futility of my mind and the hardness of my heart, I only act a bit different.</p>
<p>Successful living without grace describes mere self-reformation: get your act together, save your marriage, get off your duff and get a job. Failure in living describes failed self-efforts: when you can’t get a grip, you despair. Christless, grace-less attempts at change conclude either with the praise of your own glory or with your shame.</p></blockquote>
<p>I think there&#8217;s a fine line between someone using one&#8217;s will and human effort and someone working out in obedience according to Philippians 2:13. And I wouldn&#8217;t claim to know where that fine line is!</p>
<p>On one hand, I&#8217;m uncomfortable when people from New Creation or other churches accuse preachers who exhort the congregation to obey God (using the imperatives of Scripture and hopefully grounding it in the indicatives) of preaching change by self-efforts. I don&#8217;t think this accusation stands because that seems to be Paul&#8217;s model. On the other hand, I do recognize that many Christians have tried to overcome this or that sin through actively overcoming but have failed. And it&#8217;s only when they meditate and behold the beauty of Jesus Christ and His love for them do they finally find freedom. That is, it&#8217;s not through &#8220;working out&#8221; or &#8220;trying harder&#8221; in an active sense but through beholding and receiving in a more passive manner till their addiction finally breaks and they find freedom. That&#8217;s something beautiful I find in the testimonies of many Christians in New Creation. I&#8217;m especially encouraged by Pastor Joseph Prince sharing testimonies of how Christians, while confessing they are the righteousness of God in Christ even in the midst of their sin, eventually find true freedom and liberty from their addictions and sin &#8211; where before their striving to overcome addictions resulted only in failure.</p>
<p>So it seems that sometimes the &#8220;letting God transform me and give me grace&#8221; part happens simultaneously as the &#8220;actively working out in obedience&#8221; part. But for greater addictions, there seems to be a more chronological relationship &#8211; the former part occurs first, then the latter. </p>
<p>Just some observations and stuff I&#8217;ve been thinking about since attending New Creation. Would love to write a post on this one day and see what others have to say.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.stillhaventfound.org/2010/03/02/thoughts-on-new-creation-church-balancing-the-indicative-and-the-imperative-part-2/#comment-112504</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Mar 2010 01:34:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stillhaventfound.org/?p=424#comment-112504</guid>
		<description>Are the imperatives really imperatives when we consider this verse?:

Philippians 2:13
for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

How can an imperative be an imperative if it is really God who wills you to do what he wants you to do?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are the imperatives really imperatives when we consider this verse?:</p>
<p>Philippians 2:13<br />
for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.</p>
<p>How can an imperative be an imperative if it is really God who wills you to do what he wants you to do?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Stanley Wong</title>
		<link>http://www.stillhaventfound.org/2010/03/02/thoughts-on-new-creation-church-balancing-the-indicative-and-the-imperative-part-2/#comment-112398</link>
		<dc:creator>Stanley Wong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 00:22:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stillhaventfound.org/?p=424#comment-112398</guid>
		<description>I love this article! It makes the relationship between the indicative and imperative so clear. Thanks!

In fact, I love it so much that I&#039;m gonna reproduce this on my blog to share with more people ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love this article! It makes the relationship between the indicative and imperative so clear. Thanks!</p>
<p>In fact, I love it so much that I&#8217;m gonna reproduce this on my blog to share with more people ;-)</p>
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